Hyphenated Domain Names - "Spammy" or Not?

[dcmike]

Some say hyphenated domain names are "spammy". I have also noticed that Moz's On Page Keyword Tool does NOT recognize keywords in a non-hyphenated domain name. So one would assume neither do the bots.

I noticed obviously misleading words like car in carnival or spa in space or spatula, etc embedded in domain names and pondered the effect.

I took it a step further with non-hyphenated domain names. I experimented by selecting totally random three or four letter blocks -

Example: randomfactgenerator.net - rand omf act gene rator

Each one of those clips returns copious results AND the On-Page Report Card does not credit the domain name as containing "random facts" as keywords**,** whereas www.business-sales-sarasota.com does get credit for "business sales sarasota" in the URL.

This seems an obvious situation - unhyphenated domains can scramble the keywords and confuse the bots, as they search all possible combinations. YES -  I know the content should carry it but - I do not believe domain names are irrelevant, as many say.

I don't believe that hyphenated domain names are not more efficient than non hyphenated ones - as long as you don't overdo it. I have also seen where a weak site in an easy market  will quickly top the list because the hyphenated domain name matches the search term - I have done it (in my pre Seo Moz days) with ft-myers-auto-air.com. I built the site in a couple of days and in a couple weeks it was on page one.

Any thoughts on this?

[dcmike]

Ryan - I think you have sincerely tried to relate the world as you know it and I appreciate your time. I will leave this final thought on the subject of popular assumptions -

In html 4 the W3C denigrated target="_blank". If you used it on a page, your page wouldn't validate W3C. Reason given - their opinion that it took away visitor choice in how many windows were open. In the designer's view, NOT using it for external links simply took away visitors. As Google and just about everyone else continued opening new winows and the W3C could not give a solid, technical reason to not use it - they relented and re-included it in html 5 specs.

"Web 2.0" - commonly believed to be an official standard is nothing more than a phrase coined in a 1999 article by a consultant on electronic information architecture envisioning the user involvement we see today in places like Facebook, etc. People building Wordpress sites, etc now claim they are operating in "Web 2.0". There is no real Web 2.0 construct.

So far no one in a position of power has stated anything concrete that they are sure that (tastefully) hyphenating a domain name is going to have a negative effect on SEO.

Again, I am referring only to conventional websites - not blogs. And, why should Google worry about me with URL's like this out there - http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/casino-legislation-would-create-three-new-gambling-venues-in-south-florida/1195490

[RyanKent]

I try to work with each Q&A question and provide all the assistance or discussion I can. I choose not to leave a topic simply because of various challenges which may arise.

I have directly answered your exact question several times, but you seem unsatisfied so I will try again.

how does hyphenating brain-games.com for a site about brain games, constitute spam?

The determination of "spamminess" is made by those in position of power. Neither you nor I have that power. With respect to this conversation, Google and the general public, more specifically people who use search engines, determine spam.

Using your Viagra example, the overwhelming majority of the public would share sites which sell Viagra are spammy. Pfizer can make the greatest product, and I am sure there are sites which sell viagra which are good sites, but I am also certain there is an overwhelming number of sites which sell viagra would be considered spammy by most people. Therefore, people associate "viagra" with spam, whether or not the product itself is good or bad. It is a well-known component of the human condition that people act upon their perceptions irregardless of whether their beliefs are accurate.

In a similar manner, sites with hyphens in the URL have been badly abused in the past and have earned a reputation as spammy. It seems you desire further evidence. The next step would be taking surveys of SEOs and regular searchers to gather feedback. It seems unquestionable that a percentage of people will identify hyphenated URLs as spammy. It also is quite logical the more hyphens in a domain name, the more spammy a site will seem.

Again, for me this is a general discussion. We are just chatting. It seems you do not feel my responses are helpful so I will leave you to your beliefs.

[dcmike]

Ryan - I think you are turning this into a crusade. I have been in this game a long time and have learned to think out of the box. I am familiar with all the concepts you mention above but will say - things don't always turn out like the recipe predicts.

I was not denigrating SEO Moz - I am here, am I not? I only said none of the Moz quotes actually stated empirically that there is a measurable or provable penalty for using (not abusing) the hyphen

I am very aware of the the of lack of objectivity I would encounter defending an unpopular concept so I think I will rest my case by saying I have cast reasonable doubt on the guilt of prodigiously applied hyphens.

**The question goes unanswered - how does hyphenating brain-games.com for a site about brain games, constitute spam? Using various negative examples as models would be like saying since many people keyword stuff, keywords are spammy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic**

[RyanKent]

Michael,

You question ideas and conclusions offered by others, which is a good thing is this world. I enjoy the challenge. I agree too many people are willing to accept a random person's ideas or word as facts.

A couple thoughts for your consideration:

• SEOmoz is the world's leading authority site on SEO. I make that claim based on Alexa ranking of site traffic, presently #485. Even if this claim was disputed, it is clearly one of the most recognized and respected websites in the world on the subject of SEO.

• The official position of SEOmoz clearly seems to be adding hyphens to a domain name increases the perception of "spamminess". I draw this conclusion from the official "learn-seo" documents on the site, the articles written by multiple staff members and the information shared by Rand. Additionally there is the tool to which I offered a link. If you wish to discount the shared information, that is certainly your right.

• I shared the results of a test which I definitely agree is shallow. But without any testing to the contrary, it's something.

• I can share for my personal experience, I am prejudice against sites with multiple hyphens in the domain name. I (right or wrongly) pre-judge the site without looking and would rather scroll to the next link in SERPs then click on the site and find out myself. I have read numerous discussions where others agreed.

• I follow Google's example. Go to Google.com. Right now you will find a link to a Google website which is being promoted: http://www.oneworldmanystories.com/index.html. Notice that even with 4 words in the domain name, they do not use hyphens.

Everybody else can do as they wish, but I will continue to believe what I see, not what I hear.

That is your right. But what is it you see? You rank #1 on a term which is by definition completely non-competitive.

You rank without any external links visible in OSE. You could make a claim links are worthless as you can rank #1 without them. My point is there are over 200 factors in determining a page's rank. Your example focuses on a single factor in a non-competitive example. That's fine but then sharing you "see" results based on this example is really bad science.

The standard for determining a phrase's competitiveness is Google Adwords Keyword Tool. It shows no traffic for the term you rank #1 for. None. There are other tools which can be used, but the Adwords tool is quite convenient.

I suggest the test of an SEO strategy is how successful the strategy works over time when faced with strong competition.

[dcmike]

http://blog.silktide.com/2011/06/how-one-tiny-hyphen-destroyed-our-seo-efforts/

The above link you cite tells me a number of things

1 - it is a blog, not a conventional web site, as I refer to. I don't work on blogs

2 - Blog URL's are error prone because the code is auto generated

3 - ON the conservative side - too many hyphens

You appear to doubt the validity of the test, as do I.

[dcmike]

Sometimes I think this business is like playing pin the tail on the donkey - blindfolded, trying to hit the target.. The only empirical data I can provide at this time is -

1 - Google, and especially Yahoo, publicly state the importance they put on keywords in the URL

2 - The SEO Moz On-Page Optimization ONLY recognizes keywords in domain portion of the URL when hyphenated.

3 - the hyphen is recognized as the preferred word separator syntax. When, for example, 3 words are separated by hyphens, the search bot will search all three - in all combinations of order.

4 - No authority has given any measurable negatives - just suspicions based on hunches.

Everybody else can do as they wish, but I will continue to believe what I see, not what I hear.

[LeeMiller]

Awesome, thanks for the share Ryan :))

[RyanKent]

A test was done a few months ago. While the test concluded a hyphen harmed the rankings, the test only involved one example (3 sites) and the content was not the same, although the content was moved between sites.

http://blog.silktide.com/2011/06/how-one-tiny-hyphen-destroyed-our-seo-efforts/

[LeeMiller]

Yes I agree and I have had success with hyphens in the past, but I firmly believe  they are less likely to be successful than unhypenated websites (but that's in hindsight). As to whether the hyphen played a part in the success is another question entirely, it may have been for a multitude of other factors which I never tested at the time.

Have you conducted any research on this, might be worth doing and then publishing the results on your site, would be of great value.

Think the only way to test this would be to launch two sites, optimised and written as identical as possible (but not the same content for obvious reasons), also best to use different server hosts and see which one ranks best, would be pretty conclusive.

[dcmike]

Actually, I do have proof. And I did read the article. In it he cited an example of shoes.com vs. buy-cheap-shoes.com. A domain like shoes.com is not only way gone, it is too general. Ergo, worthless if you could get it.

buy-cheap-shoes.com sounds spammy, hyphens or not. So, the metrics he cites may be skewed by the fact that whenever an effective method becomes known it is done to death and with the poor judgement of wannabees. The word "Viagra" is now officially deemed spammy. Does that mean Pfizer can't market their own product. Can their own name be spam? I think it is case by case.

We need to be careful of too-general spam accusations or it could get like Senator McCarthy and the communists.

If the Moz on page optimization recognizes the URL ladies-shoes.com as containing "ladies shoes" keywords in the url, but does not credit ladiesshoes.com similarly, that is concrete evidence of my point.

My main question then is - how does a hyphen, in and of itself, convert ladiesshoes.com into spam - if the site sells ladie's shoes? Especially in view of the fact that the bots apparently only recognize the keywords in the domain when hyphenated?

I think the main thing is don't overdo it.

[RyanKent]

Michael, you opened a discussion Q&A. I have done my best to directly respond to the specific inquiry you have made. I have provided articles and quotes from multiple people who are recognized by many as SEO experts. The essence of this discussion comes down to one point.

Your viewpoint: hyphens in domain names are not spammy.

To support that viewpoint you have shared information such as your site is well-built, performs well in serps, is not "weak", etc. While this information is interesting, it is unrelated as to whether the domain name is considered to appear spammy.

To reiterate my question - where did the reference to spam come from? How does hyphenating two relevant words convert them to spam?

This question is interesting and I am not certain of the answer. My focus has always been practical SEO which can be applied to obtain improved results. That is not to discredit the question in any way other then to say for me, the answer is irrelevant. For example, I know the meaning of the word "sabotage". What's important to me is understanding the word and it's meaning, not the varying theories as to how the word originated.

If you want a reasonable guess as to how hyphenated domain names became associated with a perception of spam, I would say it is likely due to a time when many low quality sites like buy-viagra-sex-pills-now.com appeared. It is the same idea with .info and other TLDs.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a hyphenated domain nor a .info site. The challenges they present have been clearly listed, and you seem to not be concerned with them. That is great news! That means you can buy your domains for $10 while others are paying hundreds and thousands for a domain name without hyphens.

A tool which might help: the URL Spam Detection Tool shows your original site as "spammy".

I hope you find some of this response helpful. I have reviewed the posts you and I have made in this thread and am satisfied with the responses offered. If you feel differently I invite others to join in and share their opinion, or for you to do some additional research on this topic. Feel free to post a YouMoz article as well and you will gain more exposure for the topic and gather a lot more feedback.

Good Luck.

[LeeMiller]

Is cool Michael, the info comes from a reputable source with facts behind it, but if you have your own proof that hyphenated urls work that's good. :))

[dcmike]

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but rather trying to understand where the spam part of this concept came from.

First, what is spam? Unwanted email or a site that represents other than what it is. If a site were named free-stock-quotes.com and it indeed gave free stock quotes, wherein lies the spam?

In the reference to the "weak" site, I was concentrating on two factors - it is  smaller than the competition and has no real rank due to "who links to a auto air site"? However, it rapidly became number one in all three SE's. Why? Because the domain name matched the search and the content fit the domain name. Where is the spam in that?

To reiterate my question - where did the reference to spam come from? How does hyphenating two relevant words convert them to spam?

"....some SEOs have theorized it is a spam indicator which Google may consider."

I have evidenced superior results with hyphenated domains - not theorized or heard rumors. I also routinely see domains with low ranik and superior construction beat much higher ranking sites to the top. It's not all about rank

"A simple domain name has more opportunities to receive direct traffic."

That is entirely based on the quaint notion that peole know what and where the URL bar is AND remember your domain name too. That's why I use shortcut domain names - register the "search name" and put the short one on your cards, etc. I am amazed that I have to say seUP.net more than once. A short name is still no guarantee. Search results is what SEO is about, is it not?

AS MOBILES DOMINATE GLOBALLY - a domain name's function will be more like a scanned UPC than a phone number you dial manually.

(Half a billion people accessed mobile Internet worldwide in 2009. Usage is expected to double within five years as mobile overtakes the PC as the most popular way to get on the Web)

I still have yet to see compelling data that hyphenating a domain name is considered spam by Google, etc.

**"Google ranks domains with keywords in them highly, even if they contain hyphens"....Rand Fishkin

"...though I'm guessing part of Google's spam filter early warning system does look at hyphens"....Rand Fishkin** (...Google looks at everything and a hyphen is a thing. Google also looks at keywords - and punishes when you use too many [stuffing]. It is logical that hyphens are in the mix with a thousand other factors, being evaluated for use or abuse)

[RyanKent]

I think you're stretching my comment a bit. There's definitely competition for auto air in SW Florida, Also, it isn't really a "weak" site, just a small one, but fast loading and well constructed.

I was trying to respond to your question in the best way possible. I don't dispute there is competition for auto air in SW Florida. I did not comment on nor visit your site. It may be fast loading and a high quality site. The sole focus of my reply was with respect to the domain name itself.

With respect to hyphens in URLs, I believe most of the information you are referring to concerns the portion after the domain name. I regularly use and recommend hyphens in URLs, just not the root domain name. For example, this Q&A article's URL is: http://www.seomoz.org/q/hyphenated-domain-names-spammy-or-not. It contains 5 hyphens and they are all fine. The hyphens are presented in the web page path, not the domain name.

I can locate many articles from authoritative sources which all agree hyphens should be avoided in domain names, and having multiple hyphens in domain names are a spam factor, and affect CTR, linking and other factors. I will share two such sources and if you desire more, I would suggest you Google "hyphens in domain names" and try to focus on authoritative site results.

1. My preferred quote on this topic: "Thus, hyphens in domain names do, indeed, suck for SEO" - Rand Fishkin http://www.seomoz.org/blog/some-opinions-on-the-seo-myths-realities-fight

2.Cyrus Shephard shared "...if you go ahead and look at these correlation statistics, dashes actually are another negative factor. The more hyphens a domain name has, that is actually another negative correlation factor." http://www.seomoz.org/blog/googles-negative-ranking-factors-whiteboard-friday

I have not suggested a hyphenated domain name will rank lower then a non-hyphenated domain name, although some SEOs have theorized it is a spam indicator which Google may consider. Cyrus shared some correlations in this regard.

I do believe there are numerous factors concerning hyphens in domain names. A simple domain name has more opportunities to receive direct traffic. A hyphenated domain name will likely loose traffic due to users navigating to the non-hyphenated name. The site name will appear spammy to some users who will select another result. I believe there are other negative factors involved all of which surround the perception by some users the name is spammy. This is really not much different then the stigma of using a .info or .us site. Both domains are readily available and can rank just as well as a .com, but people distrust those domains and will often enter the .com extension automatically, thereby landing on a competing site.

If you disagree with the viewpoint I shared, that is perfect fine. The beauty of SEO is it's open to a wide variety of interpretations and tactics. You requested feedback on this topic and I am sharing my understanding in case it is helpful.

[dcmike]

I think you're stretching my comment a bit. There's definitely competition for auto air in SW Florida, Also, it isn't really a "weak" site, just a small one with low page rank (no incoming links).

My point was - auto air is certainly easier than business brokers and realtors, whom I do more work for. There's lot's of them and they are highly competitive. This tactic is working there too.

Your point with California-Realty.com relies on the fact that people actually type URL's anymore, and is easily solved by getting both versions and rolling one over to the other. I get impatient sometimes when clients can't get to a URL until I realize they're typing it into a search box.

I am a bit confused as to where the assumption came from that indicating the logical break between words constitutes spam. Where did this assumption come from? I have never heard Google mention it. They recommend hyphenatiing keywords. It's easier for the bots to make sense of a string of words stuck together.

And where is the evidence that CTR is influenced by the domain name? That isn't logical.

[dcmike]

"Reject Hyphens and Numbers
Both hyphens and numbers make it hard to give your domain name verbally and falls down on being easy to remember or type."

Reject numbers yes, but I have to disagree on the hyphens. Google proclaims that hyphens are the correct syntax for word separation and I have seen superior performance with hyphenated domain names. The above article does not mention anything about spam- just the ease of typing & rememberance without hyphens.

Since I also build the sites I have the opportunity to influence the naming. business-sales-sarasota.com had an amazingly short climb to page one results, and for ease of typing and rememberance I got him sbbfl.com for his cards - and I roll that one over to the more search friendly name. So, the clients know the site as sbbfl.com and Google, etc. knows it by the keyworded name.

I have often used a two name system - one for the search and one for the cards.

[RyanKent]

Hyphens should be avoided in domain names. If your site is "California-Realty.com" you will definitely lose a percentage of your site's visitors to CaliforniaRealty.com. If you do use a hyphen, do not use more then one or it would be considered spammy.

I have also seen where a weak site in an easy market  will quickly top the list because the hyphenated domain name matches the search term

Ranking for non-competitive phrases does not require any skill. If you have a site "xyzpdq.com" you can create a web page "Humpty Dumpty ranks well in Google". You can make a ton of SEO errors but as long as your page title and header tag matches the above phrase, you are likely to rank as #1 for it.

The entire point of SEO is competition. If you want to rank for something that no one else wants, it's all yours. The challenge is to rank for a phrase for which others want to rank. I checked "fort meyers auto air" and you do indeed rank as #1 for that term. A check of Google AdWords Keyword Tool shows this phrase to be non-competitive with no monthly searches. I would much prefer to rank #5 for a phrase which receives search traffic then #1 for a phrase which receives none. One way in which "bad" SEOs promote themselves is by sharing how many non-competitive keywords for which they were able to rank well.

Additionally, many searchers will look at the site URL before clicking on it. The problem with spammy URLs is even if you manage to rank well, your CTR is reduced which devalues your ranking.

[LeeMiller]

Not sure if this is of any help Michael

http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-to-choose-the-right-domain-name