undefined
Skip to content
Moz logo Menu open Menu close
  • Products
    • Moz Pro
    • Moz Pro Home
    • Moz Local
    • Moz Local Home
    • STAT
    • Moz API
    • Moz API Home
    • Compare SEO Products
    • Moz Data
  • Free SEO Tools
    • Domain Analysis
    • Keyword Explorer
    • Link Explorer
    • Competitive Research
    • MozBar
    • More Free SEO Tools
  • Learn SEO
    • Beginner's Guide to SEO
    • SEO Learning Center
    • Moz Academy
    • SEO Q&A
    • Webinars, Whitepapers, & Guides
  • Blog
  • Why Moz
    • Agency Solutions
    • Enterprise Solutions
    • Small Business Solutions
    • Case Studies
    • The Moz Story
    • New Releases
  • Log in
  • Log out
  • Products
    • Moz Pro

      Your all-in-one suite of SEO essentials.

    • Moz Local

      Raise your local SEO visibility with complete local SEO management.

    • STAT

      SERP tracking and analytics for enterprise SEO experts.

    • Moz API

      Power your SEO with our index of over 44 trillion links.

    • Compare SEO Products

      See which Moz SEO solution best meets your business needs.

    • Moz Data

      Power your SEO strategy & AI models with custom data solutions.

    NEW Keyword Suggestions by Topic
    Moz Pro

    NEW Keyword Suggestions by Topic

    Learn more
  • Free SEO Tools
    • Domain Analysis

      Get top competitive SEO metrics like DA, top pages and more.

    • Keyword Explorer

      Find traffic-driving keywords with our 1.25 billion+ keyword index.

    • Link Explorer

      Explore over 40 trillion links for powerful backlink data.

    • Competitive Research

      Uncover valuable insights on your organic search competitors.

    • MozBar

      See top SEO metrics for free as you browse the web.

    • More Free SEO Tools

      Explore all the free SEO tools Moz has to offer.

    What is your Brand Authority?
    Moz

    What is your Brand Authority?

    Check yours now
  • Learn SEO
    • Beginner's Guide to SEO

      The #1 most popular introduction to SEO, trusted by millions.

    • SEO Learning Center

      Broaden your knowledge with SEO resources for all skill levels.

    • On-Demand Webinars

      Learn modern SEO best practices from industry experts.

    • How-To Guides

      Step-by-step guides to search success from the authority on SEO.

    • Moz Academy

      Upskill and get certified with on-demand courses & certifications.

    • SEO Q&A

      Insights & discussions from an SEO community of 500,000+.

    Unlock flexible pricing & new endpoints
    Moz API

    Unlock flexible pricing & new endpoints

    Find your plan
  • Blog
  • Why Moz
    • Small Business Solutions

      Uncover insights to make smarter marketing decisions in less time.

    • Agency Solutions

      Earn & keep valuable clients with unparalleled data & insights.

    • Enterprise Solutions

      Gain a competitive edge in the ever-changing world of search.

    • The Moz Story

      Moz was the first & remains the most trusted SEO company.

    • Case Studies

      Explore how Moz drives ROI with a proven track record of success.

    • New Releases

      Get the scoop on the latest and greatest from Moz.

    Surface actionable competitive intel
    New Feature

    Surface actionable competitive intel

    Learn More
  • Log in
    • Moz Pro
    • Moz Local
    • Moz Local Dashboard
    • Moz API
    • Moz API Dashboard
    • Moz Academy
  • Avatar
    • Moz Home
    • Notifications
    • Account & Billing
    • Manage Users
    • Community Profile
    • My Q&A
    • My Videos
    • Log Out

The Moz Q&A Forum

  • Forum
  • Questions
  • Users
  • Ask the Community

Welcome to the Q&A Forum

Browse the forum for helpful insights and fresh discussions about all things SEO.

  1. Home
  2. Moz Tools
  3. Moz Pro
  4. Estimating the number of LRD I need to outrank competitor

Moz Q&A is closed.

After more than 13 years, and tens of thousands of questions, Moz Q&A closed on 12th December 2024. Whilst we’re not completely removing the content - many posts will still be possible to view - we have locked both new posts and new replies. More details here.

Estimating the number of LRD I need to outrank competitor

Moz Pro
4
11
2.8k
Loading More Posts
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as question
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with question management privileges can see it.
  • He_Jo
    He_Jo Subscriber last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 4:44 PM

    I just ran a SERP/keyword diffculty report for a keyword I want one of my pages to rank

    Also, I just conducted the on-the-page-optimization and now I am going to start buidling links.

    => I would like to estimate how many linking root domains I need to overrank one of my competitor. These are the MOZ data:
    1. My page:
    Page Linking Root domains: 0
    Root Domain Linking Root Domains: 151

    2. Competitor:
    Page linking root domains: 1
    Root Domain Linking Root Domains: 5,786

    I don't really know on which metric (Page or domain LRD) to rely on in order to make an estimation and I would be glad for some help!

    To simplyfy the problem, assume that all toher factors (code, on-the-page keyword use., social etc.) are equal for both sites. Can I just get 2LRD to that page in order to likely outrank my competitor or do I need around 5000 more links poiting to my site?

    I think an answer to this question could help a lot of users here, since I saw similar questions/difficulties regarding the use of page LRD vs. root domain LRD

    P.S. Non of the pages of my website do currently rank in the top 100 for that keyword.

    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
    • EGOL
      EGOL @He_Jo last edited by Sep 26, 2012, 12:39 PM Sep 26, 2012, 12:39 PM

      **I am trying to get an rough estimation anyway....  **

      That's good.  Lots of people are selling the $1000/month package to people who need $5000/month to be effective and don't know it.  You are trying to figure it out and that is very important.

      Economists call this "ceteris paribus" analysis.

      There's an awful lot of variables here.  That's what makes it interesting.

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • He_Jo
        He_Jo Subscriber @EGOL last edited by Sep 26, 2012, 10:02 AM Sep 26, 2012, 10:02 AM

        Thanks EGOL for the detailed answer and sorry for my late reply- just coming back from vacation 🙂

        It is clear to me that the question cannot just be easily answered by a number. I understand this and I wish my clients/supervisors would do that too - but that's a different story...

        I am trying to get an rough estimation anyway, assuming that all other factors (on-the-page factors, words on page, quality of the content, social signals, age of the domian etc.) of the competitor's page/site are exactly the same as on my page/site and these factors would not move. Economists call this "ceteris paribus" analysis.

        P.S. I've been in the business now for a while, but just starting to use SEOMoz (we used other tools before) - the ressources on this website and especially this question section is just simply awesome!!

        EGOL 1 Reply Last reply Sep 26, 2012, 12:39 PM Reply Quote 0
        • topic:timeago_earlier,9 days
        • EGOL
          EGOL @RobertFisher last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 11:18 PM Sep 16, 2012, 11:18 PM

          Thank you Robert.  I put a little extra effort into it because I figured that you would like it.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • ThompsonPaul
            ThompsonPaul @ThompsonPaul last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 10:19 PM Sep 16, 2012, 10:19 PM

            Ayup - and to accomplish that means being willing/able to do some business analysis, not just site analysis. Which moves into the realm of web marketing optimization, not just SEO. Which is where the real value in this whole process lies IMO

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • RobertFisher
              RobertFisher @EGOL last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 9:34 PM Sep 16, 2012, 9:34 PM

              EGOL

              This may be the best answer I have seen to any question. The beauty of it goes on and on in that anyone in SEO dealing with clients must always ask themselves: Can the client handle the truth and/or understand the explanation?

              The explanation is what you just gave and the truth is that no one knows for sure and it will often cost you a lot to get there. The other difficulty for SEO clients is that we live in a world of instant gratification. I have clients who spend a lot with me and regularly ask what they are getting (yes, they get reports, etc.). Interestingly, these same clients will mention they have just authorized a $250,000 TV ad campaign. (Trust me we are a bit cheaper.)

              They understand the tv ad no matter what the results; even with excellent results (more and more customers) they have a hard time understanding the SEO.

              Egol,

              Thanks a bunch for a truly excellent, thought provoking answer.

              Robert

              EGOL 1 Reply Last reply Sep 16, 2012, 11:18 PM Reply Quote 1
              • EGOL
                EGOL @ThompsonPaul last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 9:17 PM Sep 16, 2012, 9:17 PM

                We compete against pages on about.com and amazon.com that are thin content and have zero off-page assets.  About.com has skimpy information about our topic and nothing to sell.  Amazon has a couple things to sell an zero informative information.

                They outrank us for the short tail.

                We have the best and deepest informative content on the web in our niche, informative video, youtube channel, lots of articles, printable resources, one of the best selections of products on the web, an email address that answers questions almost 24/7/365 and a phone where you can talk to someone who uses and tests most of the products regularly and has handled,  inspected, photographed, described,  every product that we sell.

                This is one of the problems with google giving huge authority to the brands.  Mom and pop know an awful lot more and give immediate, helpful, informative, caring service... but they get no respect in the SERPs.

                I understand our position in the rankings.  Praise be that I don't have to explain it to a client!

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                • EGOL
                  EGOL @ThompsonPaul last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 9:04 PM Sep 16, 2012, 9:04 PM

                  Or to determine whether the costs of attempting success are just too high to be worth it.

                  I would really respect an SEO who told me something like this.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • ThompsonPaul
                    ThompsonPaul last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 8:17 PM Sep 16, 2012, 8:17 PM

                    Egol's explained the true scope of what you're asking, but to give a specific response to your specific question:

                    No, just having one more incoming link to your page than your competitor has to his will never guarantee you'll outrank him.

                    Search engine algorithms use hundreds of signals when ranking a page, and the number of incoming links to that page is only one measure.(And it's more than just wht else is on the page, like code, keyword use etc)

                    Even if we just restrict ourselves to considering the links to a single page, additional issues like the authority of the sources of the incoming links plays a huge part.  Not all links are of equal value.

                    But more importantly, things like the authority of the whole domain have huge impact as well. That's why SEOMoz goes out of it's way to compute scores for domain authority as well as page authority. A weak page on a strong site will frequently outrank a strong page on a weaker site. That's one of the big frustrations/challenges of nearly all small site owners.

                    Bottom line, neither Page nor Domain LRD metrics are sufficient in themselves for assessing the work ahead of you.

                    Make sense?

                    Paul

                    EGOL 1 Reply Last reply Sep 16, 2012, 9:17 PM Reply Quote 2
                    • ThompsonPaul
                      ThompsonPaul @EGOL last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 8:04 PM Sep 16, 2012, 8:04 PM

                      What Egol has just described is why SEO is only part science and the rest - a significant portion - is still an art. It's also why automated implementation tools have never been successful.

                      It takes juggling a wide range of constantly changing factors, many with very subjective values, to deliver success. Or to determine whether the costs of attempting success are just too high to be worth it.

                      Website owners always HATE to hear the accurate response, but the honest response to so many (most?) SEO questions is:

                      It Depends.

                      And the good, ethical SEOs will tell you that right up front, as Egol has done. It would be so much easier if SEO, Conversion Rate Optimization etc were linear pursuits - do X and the result will be Y. But they're not, which is why good SEOs will beat those who simply follow (and promise results from ) formulas.

                      Frustrating huh?

                      Paul

                      EGOL ThompsonPaul 2 Replies Last reply Sep 16, 2012, 10:19 PM Reply Quote 4
                      • EGOL
                        EGOL last edited by Sep 16, 2012, 6:42 PM Sep 16, 2012, 6:36 PM

                        Anyone who gives you a number for this question is full of beans.

                        This is one of the most difficult questions in SEO and most of the people who are charging clients for SEO can not answer it.

                        Lots of SEOs have clients on a $500/month plan when the target that they are attacking needs many times that much to become competitive.

                        Let me give just a couple reasons why this question is so difficult and why nobody here can give you an answer with the information that you provided.

                        ====================

                        Your question is making a straight comparison....   it assumes that you are racing a stationary target.  The target is not stationary.   This question is really like this...

                        Two cars are driving on a road.... Car B leaves when Car A is already 100 miles down the road and traveling at a rate of 50 miles per hour.   How fast will Car B have to drive to overtake Car A?

                        The answer is a velocity AND a time.   And the question as I stated it assumes no acceleration.

                        If Car B drives 51 miles per hour... will you have the patience and budget for that long of a wait?  Do you have the resources needed to drive 70 and not be stopped by Google?

                        =====================

                        Another example...

                        George Pickett was a southern general at the Battle of Gettysburg who was ordered by Robert E. Lee to run the Union Army off of Cemetery Ridge. To do that Pickett's troops would need to cross a mile-wide open field in broad daylight under an absolute hail of enemy fire.

                        The field was one mile wide, it was up a slight incline - if they were slow in crossing they would be mowed down...

                        The Union had hundreds of troops dug in and positioned on the ridge and ready to open fire - if Pickett had only a few troops they would be mowed down....

                        So Pickett needed to order an enormous number of troops across that field and order them to run their asses off to engage the Union Army quickly - or die in the middle of the field.

                        If they failed in getting a enough troops... if they failed in getting enough speed... if they failed in getting enough determination and courage... then they would be mowed down.

                        Your job is similar to Pickett's... you must get an enormous number of links... you must get them quickly... and you must get them before your budget runs out... and you better hope that your budget is big enough.

                        Pickett knew that his field was a mile wide.. he knew how many troops that he had. He could see Union troops on the other side of the field at the top of the ridge.

                        Pickett's generals complained when they were told the battle plan... but Pickett pointed at the Ridge.

                        This battle was lost on bad math.

                        But your problem is even more difficult... the field is getting wider as you cross it because the target is moving away from you.

                        ==================

                        And your problem is also more difficult because links have different values.  One link from the Pope's site is worth a thousand from pedestrian sites.

                        Furthermore... different pages compete with different amounts of vigor.   I might have a fifty word page but my competitor might have 2000 words, ten images, a video, and tables of data.  Big difference.

                        ===================

                        So, how is an SEO to know what is needed?

                        1. You run the keyword difficulty tool and get a feel for the numbers (which contain much confusion).

                        2. You go out to those SERPs and visit the sites and get a feel for their authority and content quality.

                        3. Then you use open site explorer to see if the Pope is on their side.

                        4. Then you decide if you are up to beating their content, beating their numbers, beating their quality.... and if you can do that quickly enough before the conditions of engagement change or your budget runs out.

                        After all of that you decide on taking the gamble or not.

                        ThompsonPaul RobertFisher He_Jo 3 Replies Last reply Sep 26, 2012, 10:02 AM Reply Quote 7
                        • 1 / 1
                        1 out of 11
                        • First post
                          1/11
                          Last post

                        Got a burning SEO question?

                        Subscribe to Moz Pro to gain full access to Q&A, answer questions, and ask your own.


                        Start my free trial


                        Browse Questions

                        Explore more categories

                        • Moz Tools

                          Chat with the community about the Moz tools.

                        • SEO Tactics

                          Discuss the SEO process with fellow marketers

                        • Community

                          Discuss industry events, jobs, and news!

                        • Digital Marketing

                          Chat about tactics outside of SEO

                        • Research & Trends

                          Dive into research and trends in the search industry.

                        • Support

                          Connect on product support and feature requests.

                        • See all categories

                        Related Questions

                        • mrezair

                          Unsolved Need Moz SEO Wordpress Plugin With API

                          moz da wordpress seo tools

                          Re: Moz WordPress Plugin? Hi guys,
                          I need some Moz SEO Wordpress Plugins For my website working with Moz API. I've already found Moz DA-PA Checker plugin Moz DA-PA Checker But Need SEO Plugins too. Any Suggestion will be appreciated.

                          Moz Pro | Aug 22, 2024, 2:27 AM | mrezair
                          0
                        • baddjuju

                          Unsolved Mobile Rankings for me and competitors disappear in Moz but still ranking.

                          rankings reports keyword rankings google mobile

                          Hi, I'm trying to create an SEO report for my client however their mobile rankings have completely disappeared for Google Mobile rankings. Competitors rankings have disappeared as well. Could this be a Moz configuration issue?

                          Moz Pro | Aug 12, 2023, 3:28 PM | baddjuju
                          0
                        • chachakhota

                          What are Keywordbasket.com & Keyword-suggest-tool.com. Competitors have Tons of these

                          My client is in the Custom Scale Model industry.  They build Custom Aircraft Models, Custom Ship Models and more. Their competitor's Backlinks reports have a Ton of metrics coming from: http://www.keywordbasket.com  and https://www.keyword-suggest-tool.com There is line after line of these entries in the backlink report.  As much as 50 line entries.  what exactly is happening here?  Are they manually using these tools to generate search entries and caching this data in the form of Backlinks?  Please explain.   is this a Gray Hat Tactic?

                          Moz Pro | Nov 12, 2021, 4:34 PM | chachakhota
                          0
                        • itvisionsinc

                          Competitor getting External Links from search.aol.com

                          Recently, I noticed that one of the competitors I track within my Moz campaign received about 12 new inbound  links. As a result, there DA jumped about 10 points. I reviewed these new external links and was surprised to see that they are all "search.aol.com/aol/search?query= ..." with Link Anchor Text that is good for the industry we compete in. Can anyone tell me why these are being counted as "Inbound Links". It just doesn't seem right. Is this some sort of black hat seo tactic?

                          Moz Pro | Jul 13, 2018, 2:10 PM | itvisionsinc
                          0
                        • Dogara

                          Ive been using moz for just a minute now , i used it to check my website and find quite a number of errors , unfortunately i use a wordpress website and even with the tips , is till dont know how to fix the issues.

                          ive seen quite a number of errors on my website hipmack.co  a wordpress website and i dont know how to begin clearing the index errors or any others for that matter , can you help me please? ghg-1.jpg

                          Moz Pro | Dec 7, 2017, 11:20 PM | Dogara
                          0
                        • Highline_Ideas

                          Need help understanding search filter URL's and meta tags

                          Good afternoon Mozzers, One of our clients is a real estate agent and on that site there is a search field that will allow a person to search by filtered categories. Currently, the URL structure makes a new URL for each filter option and in my Moz reports I get the report that there is missing meta data. However, the page is the same the filter options are different so I am at a loss as to how to proper tag our site to optimize those URL's. Can I rel canonical the URL's or alt rel them? I have been looking for a solution for a few days now and like I said I am at a loss of how to properly resolve these warning messages, or if I should even be concerned with the warning messages from Moz (obviously I should be concerned, they are warning messages for a reason). Thank you for your assistance in advance!

                          Moz Pro | Mar 14, 2014, 1:38 PM | Highline_Ideas
                          0
                        • Cuker

                          How to add more competitors

                          I've used SEOmoz in the past but it's been some time now. Currently in the demo phase and testing out many of the features again, I'm curious whether I can add more competitors above the 3 I entered when setting up my campaign?

                          Moz Pro | Dec 23, 2012, 3:47 PM | Cuker
                          0
                        • afmaury

                          How can I reduce the number of links on a page and keep the site easy to navigate?

                          The SEOmoz Site Crawl indicates that we have too many on page links on over 9,970 pages. This is an ecommerce site with a large number of categories. I have a couple of questions regarding this issue: How important is the "too many on page links" factor to SEO? What are some methods of reducing the number of links when there are a large number of categories? We have main categories with dropdown menus currently and have found that they are used to browse and shop the store.

                          Moz Pro | Oct 26, 2011, 6:30 PM | afmaury
                          1

                        Get started with Moz Pro!

                        Unlock the power of advanced SEO tools and data-driven insights.

                        Start my free trial
                        Products
                        • Moz Pro
                        • Moz Local
                        • Moz API
                        • Moz Data
                        • STAT
                        • Product Updates
                        Moz Solutions
                        • SMB Solutions
                        • Agency Solutions
                        • Enterprise Solutions
                        Free SEO Tools
                        • Domain Authority Checker
                        • Link Explorer
                        • Keyword Explorer
                        • Competitive Research
                        • Brand Authority Checker
                        • MozBar Extension
                        • MozCast
                        Resources
                        • Blog
                        • SEO Learning Center
                        • Help Hub
                        • Beginner's Guide to SEO
                        • How-to Guides
                        • Moz Academy
                        • API Docs
                        About Moz
                        • About
                        • Team
                        • Careers
                        • Contact
                        Why Moz
                        • Case Studies
                        • Testimonials
                        Get Involved
                        • Become an Affiliate
                        • MozCon
                        • Webinars
                        • Practical Marketer Series
                        • MozPod
                        Connect with us

                        Contact the Help team

                        Join our newsletter
                        Moz logo
                        © 2021 - 2025 SEOMoz, Inc., a Ziff Davis company. All rights reserved. Moz is a registered trademark of SEOMoz, Inc.
                        • Accessibility
                        • Terms of Use
                        • Privacy

                        Looks like your connection to Moz was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.