Local Really?

[jonnyholt]

I've asked this question before and got some strong advice ( I think ) but the results have been not so strong.  I'm looking for advice on local.  I have this profile:  https://plus.google.com/u/0/114370561649922317296/about

That I need to rank for "austin wedding photographers" and I have yet to figure out a way to get it to move on the map results.  I understand these things take time, but its been a couple of months, and as far as I can tell, its still ranking on page 10 of the "local results" (meaning you search for austin wedding photographers, then click under the map listings to see Google Maps with the listings to the left.)  Furthermore, all my organic competition for the most part is now on the local results and the map is ranking higher than all but one organic.  Suggestions would be a huge plus.  Last time some folks analyzed the google plus local page and gave some tips.  Since then a few things have happened.

1.  I notice most of the Google Local listings that come up on page 1 in the map have a similar page when clicking "more info."  They mostly have a map as their cover photo on their listing.

2.  Google has merged my Google Places and Google Plus Local account so that when you click "more info" on the listing (on page 10) it takes you too the branded Google Plus Local page.  I like this, but it worries me that most of the high ranking pages don't have this.

3.  I have added a Geo Sitemap to Google Webmaster tools but it doesn't show as indexed yet.  I understand this can take up to 6 weeks?  Does this help?  It came when I bought Yoast SEO Local and generated KML files.

4. The address for Google Plus local is real address of a home, so Google doesn't show the specific address.  I used to have a mailbox center as the address but was advised to fix that.  I have sense changed the address on as many sites as I could (Yelp, YP, Superpages, etc.)

5.  Do I need an address on the website?  The client does not want her home address listed anywhere for privacy reasons.

Hope this is enough information for someone with knowledge to help.  The website is ranking first page (3 or 4 organically) for the terms I need for the most part but Local seems to be stronger.  Thanks in advance.

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Jonathan,

This thread has moved beyond its original topic and I'd recommend that you start a new thread for additional, new questions like this, so that you can receive maximum feedback from the community. Hope this helps you to receive good answers to all of your different questions!

[jonnyholt]

is it common for the places listing to take a plunge when you first start working on it?  In a matter of 4 days the listing has gone from page 10 to page 18 (in the maps listings)  I could see that being a possibility since there is so much changing so quickly but just looking for some professional insight.

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Jonathan,

I recommend you pick one landing page for Denver and one landing page for Austin and have all citations point to these chosen, respective pages.

I also recommend that you not necessarily rely only on Yext to help you find problematic listings. Read:

http://www.ngsmarketing.com/why-yext-might-not-be-the-best-fit-for-your-business/

Yext is good for some things and many people like it, but the article I've linked to will explain some of the apparent weaknesses in the system that could cause problematic listings to be overlooked.

[jonnyholt]

Ok guys I have been hard at work and found tons of good input as well as missing and incorrect listing (and I know there are probably even more) and have either fixed, requested a fix, or am currently waiting for an email back.  I also ended up with a Yahoo / Yext Power Listing that has really helped add correct listings into the mix.

I also have pages /austin and /denver fixed up with the address for each city and then have a separate contact page for each of them at /austin/contact and /denver/contact with the "schema.org" listing of the address I think*.

I do have a question about NAP.  It's not NAPW so if the the listings have different website url's is that a big deal?  I know some of the listings say photojennette.com, and then on my power listing I did photojennette.com/austin/contact and then some are just photojennette.com/austin.

I really want to fix them all and think I'll be able once Yahoo approves my listing because it says I can edit at that time, but thoughts?

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Jonathon,

Yes, it is typical for multi-location businesses to have unique landing pages on their websites and for them to use the URLs of these landing pages as the URLs entered into the respective Google+ Local pages, rather than linking all of the Google+ Local pages to the homepage. This serves to further differentiate the pages/locations from one another.

[jonnyholt]

You're right, I mis-pronounced.  I do understand citations I think.  I should have hopefully my work will start to fix the NAP in the citations.

You said-

These would be the pages you would be linking your Google+ Local pages to for the respective locations.

So I would link these as the website on the google plus local page business information as just :

http://www.photojennette.com/austin/contact

???

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Jonathon,

You are so welcome. I am concerned that you are still not quite understand what a citation is. You write:

"Hopefully this will be very helpful in NAP and lowering some citations!"

Citations are not a negative thing you want to reduce or lower. They are positive references to your business NAP. They only thing that would be negative about them is if they have bad NAP on them (i.e. a wrong address, phone number etc.).

Yes, I would have a unique landing page for the Austin and another for Denver. These could be the contact pages, provided you include lots of great unique content on them as well as the complete NAP. These would be the pages you would be linking your Google+ Local pages to for the respective locations.

Beyond that, in future, your client may want to develop additional city landings pages for other cities where she serves but does not have a physical location. For example, let's say she does a series of ten weddings in Dallas, TX. She might create a Dallas Wedding Photography page, with unique text content and a showcase of her photography of weddings she's done in Dallas. But, this type of work should be set on the back burner until the core work has been done surrounding the two physical locations, in my opinion.

[jonnyholt]

Status Update:

I have created two separate contact pages that are linked to from the menu as well as the footer.  The contact pages have a little bit different information but any advice on these would be appreciated.

http://www.photojennette.com/austin/contact

http://www.photojennette.com/denver/contact

They each include the correct NAP.  I have also linked to these pages directly from the information page for Denver wedding photography as well as Austin wedding photography.

I've also read all the above resources.  Miriam, I was a little confused as to whether I need city landing pages for this business because the business has physical locations in each place, but serves a radius in each location as well as worldwide, but I went ahead and did it.  So now there is a /austin and /denver that will have information for wedding photography as well as engagement photography in the designated areas (might even touch on other types of photography as well.)  From those pages you will be able to easily get to a page about Austin wedding photography and Austin engagement photography and the same for Denver.

Does all this sound like a baby step in the right direction?

[jonnyholt]

_So, Jonathan, I think you need to sit your client down and explain to them they have a very pretty site and I love the story of who and what they are. You need to tell them that will be on the story page and you will be handling the other pages. You should create a contact page for Austin, you should do the sub directory for Denver Photog and another page for Denver contact. Use the API, place markup, authorship, review, etc. Make sure the photos are geotagged and that the Denver are on the Denver pages and Austin on Austin. That is what will fix your issue. _

I'm working on this now.  I have created /denver and /austin on wordpress.  I'm going to be creating two separate pages for contact.  One will be under /austin and the other under /denver.  They will each have the same contact form, but will have different content on them.  Do you know which wordpress plugin I need for the Google Map API to mark up the pages correctly?  Also, do i need to do this mark up to every page and post on the site?  Again, the client has two separate locations in both Austin and Denver and they are both equally important.  The client literally lives in both places currently.  I'm waiting on the Google card with the pin code to confirm the Denver location currently on Places.  I'm tackling this head on with long term goals of improvement over the next 6 months.  I plan to dedicate a few hours a week to this specific subject for that amount of time.  I understand that no ONE thing will fix it and hope to continue learning from you guys.

[jonnyholt]

Marcus,

Thanks for your info.  In regards to #6, I used the link to grab the code for the address to post on the Location Listing Page.  I'm using wordpress, and when I paste the code in (even in the "code" view thats just says text, It comes up formatted a little strangely.  Is there a better way to do this on wordpress? Perhaps a plugin?  I thought about pasting into the "Head" section but then it would be on every page.  Thanks in advance.

[jonnyholt]

I will be going over all of this over the next few days.  Thank you so much for the amazing support in this situation.  I spent a few hours today going through 10 pages of google results and correcting the address to one or both of the new addresses.  Hopefully this will be very helpful in NAP and lowering some citations!  I will continue to work through 5-10 pages of results for the company name search in an effort to really give some solid ground to this campaign.

In the meantime, I'm looking at my options for re-working the website to give equal attention to both cities where I am focusing on local results, Austin and Denver.  As it stands, I have those two URLS (http://www.photojennette.com/austin and /denver) 301 Redirected to /austin-wedding-photos and /denver-wedding-photos which are pages directed at organic SEO and information for the those places.  I noticed someone mentioned sub domains.  Sub-domaining would mean a whole new installed of wordpress and the theme I have running, does  /denver and /austin work or do I need to have austin.photojennette.com, etc.?  I can easily have /denver and then have /denver/location as a page.  and the same for Austin.  As for the location page, are we just talking about listing the address and maybe embedding a Google Map of the location?

Again, so very thankful for you guys.

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Jonathon,

Very nice reply. Let me bang through these quickly.

1. Citations are references around the web to a business' name, address and phone number. So, a listing of a business on Yelp, CitySearch, Bing Places for Business, Best of the Web, etc. = a citation. Citations can also occur elsewhere, such a blog posts or news articles that mention a business' name, address and phone number. Citations also often include a link to the business' website, but they don't absolutely have to. Stated very, very simply, citations with correct information in them build authority and help rankings. Citations with incorrect information cloud authority and negatively impact a business' ability to rank well. It's more complicated than this, but this is my simplest definition.

2. NAP stands for Name, Address, Phone Number. All of local hangs on publishing correct NAP in a variety of places.

3. Yes, cleaning up your client's citations will be critical to sending a clear data signal to Google and human users and your efforts to earn high rankings. This will take time to do and time to see benefits from.

4. It is completely fine that the client is home-based. I am going to link here to one of my own articles:

The Nitty Gritty of City Landing Pages

The core of your Local SEO work is going to revolve around the client's 2 physical locations, but there are organic SEO strategies to pursue for her work outside her cities of location. These are covered in the above article. My advice is: get everything totally in order with her Austin and Denver locations first, then move on to consider how you can promote the business in other places, following the guidelines given in the above article.

5. Competitors are often bad role-models. They may lack the education to do things right. If you see a field full of bad practices, you have an awesome chance to outstrip them by implementing good practices.

6. I honestly wouldn't even worry about this right now. Get the basics in order first and then start turning your attention to other stuff like geotagging.

[Marcus_Miller]

Hey Jonathan, Robert, Miriam

That is really a spectacular answer from Robert there and it addresses the one primary thing you can't always write a 1, 2, 3 list of instructions for - mindset. Things have been done badly, they need to be undone and then done right going forward.

In my experience no one specific ranking factor will derail the train here (no address) but there are easy wins and not being prepared to share the address on the site itself means you are unlikely to want to share it on citation sources so that could be a deal breaker.

You are asking very specific questions as well and without really digging in folks can only give you a 'maybe' type of answer. Even with some detailed analysis this is detective work at the best of times and I like to try and make a list of usual suspect problems and knock them down one by one and then be prepared to wait (and wait, and wait).

Your questions.

1. Maybe (and it's certainly not helping - sort them out, see if it helps)

2. NAP - There is a local search Glossary here well worth a read and then Google for more details: https://getlisted.org/static/resources/glossary.html

3. Cool - that's a start. As Miriam mentioned the address does not need to be visible on the listing (although it does need to be entered) but you don't have this luxury with the citations so...

4. If you have multiple supported locations then you need to optimise the site around this. Have a locations page, have a page for all supported locations that have a physical address and optimise these pages and link them to the local profiles, use schema markup etc (Robert gave great tips here but again research on page optimisation for local SEO)

5. Tough break, but it sounds like you have negative factors and have started from a minus here. As Robert mentioned, don't try to swim upstream, except the situation for what it is and do what you need to do to fix things.

6. If these more complicated aspects are throwing you just dial the basics in. You can get schema mark up for the address for the location page(s) here: http://www.microdatagenerator.com/local-business-schema/ - get the embed code for the clients map and link out to the specific location local profile and make that links back and call it good for starters.

Beyond that, as a gigging SEO try to embrace this difficult job as it will make things so much easier next time you have a client or job that has these problems (and so much more pragmatic in your attempts to set something up from the off as it is all about the small details).

Hope that helps
Marcus

[jonnyholt]

Wow, the last few comments alone have made my subscription here at Moz completely worth it.  Thank you really for the advice.  I could take a really long time to respond to each of the above comments but I think we all know you guys are right, and I have tons of work to do.  I will revisit the thread from before and start working through it.  Now to address a few further questions (and I know I'm about to sound really ignorant.)

1. Are citations errors that are causing devalue of the listing?

2.  What is NAP?  I'm not so great with acronyms in the field.

3.  Since my last thread, I have explained to the client that the address is very important and she is onboard now so I will be doing what is needed to fix the citations.

4.  The client does offer services in Austin, Denver, and of course wants to travel for destinations.  Destinations is clearly out on local which is fine because Google is starting to rank local businesses based on proximity of the user for the terms from what I can tell.  The client has physical addresses in Austin and Denver.  They are home based businesses, not storefronts.

5.  As for my comment in the previous thread about patterns, I have thoroughly researched each one of the listings coming up in the results.  The reason why I said what I said is because I don't see many of the things you guys have mentioned on them.  For instance, none of them have their address on their site.  Most of them don't have Google Plus Local connected, etc. etc.  I wasn't trying to be arrogant (although at the time I clearly didn't know how great the advice I was getting from Linda and Miriam was and lucky it's just hard to believe I need to do all this when I know my competition isn't.  I will do it though.

6.  Google Maps API:  I'm a little confused as to what to do.  Is there a different plugin for geotagging photos?  I see WP Google Maps amongst other plugins for wordpress.  Is there a specific one?

Thanks again for your time.  You guys are right, I am extremely dedicated to learning more about local and proceeding on a good path that will be helpful to future clients as well.  I really appreciate everything.

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Robert,

I think you've raised such an important point here:

"I think you are falling into a very bad trap in SEO. You are looking for the "thing" that is going to do it and that does not exist IMO.".

That is quite correct. We know that the Local algo consists of several hundred different factors. Success depends on getting many, many little things right - not just one big thing. I found this comment to be extremely insightful.

[MiriamEllis]

Hi Jonathon,

Unfortunately, I am still seeing issues on your Google+ Local page, as we saw when you previously posted the client's business. I recommend you go back and review the answers you received on those previous threads to be sure you've made every effort to remedy possible problems.

I want to clarify one thing here - if a client is a home-based SAB, they do not have to put their address on their website. They only need to enter in the dashboard of those platforms that allow the address to be hidden. It needs to be a legitimate address that is being entered, but you don't have to put it on the website.

Is this ideal? No. Why? Because Google will have the address in their dashboard and will come to the website looking to verify its accuracy. If there is no address listed there, then Google has less data to go on, so that is less than ideal, but is a reality for many home-based businesses. If your client has competitors with public studios who are able to show their addresses on their website, we might guess that they have a bit of advantage over your client, because their NAP is more easily cross-referenced by Google. But, I did want to chime in here to say it's not absolutely essential to publish an address on the website.

As Marcus has mentioned, citation cleanup is going to be essential here, due to the past existence of a type of address that was a violation of the Google Places Quality Guidelines. It's good you've gotten started on this. It can take some time for Google to re-index your corrected citations, so you may need to wait a bit to see the benefits of having made that effort. I will stress - you must be totally thorough in this work. Even one bad citation can breed multiple bad listings across the web because of the way data is shared in the local search ecosystem.

Like Robert, I am positive your heart is in the right place trying to help this client. You've received an enormous amount of feedback here at Moz from the whole community about this client - that's what we're here for! - and I hope you've been able to implement some of my previous advice about learning as much as you can about Local SEO in order to be better able to advise local business owners like this one. I provided a variety of learning resources on a previous thread of yours, and I hope you are checking those out on a regular basis. Local is definitely an on-going learning process for everyone involved in it.

[RobertFisher]

Jonathan,

I am not sure there is going to be an answer you like. I know you have asked this and questions around it before, and there does not seem to be a result you want. The reason is you are approaching it as if it is carpentry and if you cut the boards correctly everything should fit. It does not work that way. You start your question with "I've asked this question before and got some strong advice ( I think ) but the results have been not so strong.  I'm looking for advice on local. " I am assuming you are talking about the advice for your question on the 10th of July.

There are two people on that string that you may be unaware of: Linda Buquet seen here on Google who is a Top Contributor to Google for her contributions in Local. Along with her help, you had Miriam Ellis of Solas Web Design who is a top local person and a Moz associate (Typically, the associates must have some  experience; they can't just send some candy, etc. to Seattle or Portland...I don't think they can anyway To give you an idea, I have paid Linda to train people for me. My head of local was already smart and she wanted to go learn from Linda - she is much sharper now. Miriam has helped me and others with really tough issues in Local and I would trust her advice anywhere on Local.

If you go back to what Linda said to you on that day it is very telling as to your situation:

**Wanted to let you know you have major violations that could get you suspended. So you may be suffering from a ranking penalty. **If Linda told me this, I would stop what I was doing and i would fix each and every item and I would tell thank you so much, where do I send a check? But Jonathan, you said this:

"I am a patterns person.  If I saw a pattern that seemed to support your statement besides the fact that my clients listing isn't at the top, I would definitely agree with your comments but they simply don't apply to what I am seeing Google place at the top of the results." Toward the end of the string you were more conciliatory and complimentary, but you need to understand that Local is not easy at all. Frankly, there is no "easy" SEO if it is done right. (There are easy pieces.)

When you placed this question in mid Sept., You stated: "I know the drill about making a second page and trying to rank that page but is there a better way?" This comes off as if you don't believe them and don't want to do it, you would prefer doing something else.

Then you say this: " I got some pretty bad advice early on so Local has been a rough ride back up for me and I have yet to see any improvement on ranking in that area, but I did just install Local SEO by Yoast on the wordpress site which let me submit a Geo Sitemap and includes kml files for both locations so I'm hoping that helps with that. I really think you are missing the whole point now and I am not trying in anyway to be mean or abusive. I think you are falling into a very bad trap in SEO. You are looking for the "thing" that is going to do it and that does not exist IMO.

You did some things in Local and someone who talks with Google daily and is a top contributor told you that you had a big problem and you were lucky to not have been banned. Then they gave you advice you did not like and you want to rank now. Many on Moz deal with clients who come to us because the last firm did some things they should not have done. We are very clear with those clients that fixing major errors in judgement have tremendous resource costs: Time, money, people. I you are doing most of this yourself, you are dealing with a three headed dragon and it is likely frustrating you. But, you will not bend Google to your will. Trust me that knowing some of the people I do here on Moz, if it could have been done, it would have been done. There are some fire breathing dragons on Moz that have worked at this without end. They have not changed Google. There are even those who came at it with a different tact and were soft spoken and sent them candy, etc. It did not work. Google is a business that is focused on its self interest and the self interest of its stakeholders.

Marcus is a bright guy and he tells you right here you have to have an address on the website. That is a part of local. All this stuff about not wanting someone to steal expensive camera equipment, etc. flies in the face of reason. There are tons of photogs in Houston, NYC, Austin, etc. who have the equipment and addresses. Photogs are no more vulnerable based on what I see on the news than other businesses. But, if the owner doesn't want to have an address, give up on local. 
You have changed the address at least twice in a few months. A one time address change can be a problem. Now you want to rank in local.

On the post you had mid September, I gave you several things that I know work. I said TWO pages. You do not want to hear that for some reason. You cannot rank the url that is #10 in the organic: http://www.photojennette.com/ also in the 7 pack. That is why two pages. You did not add the Google maps API (I would have added to a contact page). You have not used any local business structured data, etc. But, even more problematic is this:

The page you rank for in local for Austin wedding photographer, has Austin, wedding, photographer(s) each one time in that phrase. It also has Denver wedding photographers in it. The bottom of the page has Austin, Denver, Destinations and it has the 303 Denver # and the 512 Austin #??? When you go to the contact page you have:

Jenny and Jonathan are based out of Austin, Texas and Denver, Colorado and happily document weddings and     events around the globe. Their current portfolio features weddings from all over the US, as well as Mexico and Italy. Photojennette also has an extensive portrait and commercial portfolio and would be thrilled to chat more about whatever your photography needs may be.

So, Jonathan, I think you need to sit your client down and explain to them they have a very pretty site and I love the story of who and what they are. You need to tell them that will be on the story page and you will be handling the other pages. You should create a contact page for Austin, you should do the sub directory for Denver Photog and another page for Denver contact. Use the API, place markup, authorship, review, etc. Make sure the photos are geotagged and that the Denver are on the Denver pages and Austin on Austin. That is what will fix your issue.

I took this amount of time to write to you because I think you mean well and you want to do well by your client. (Anyone who knows me in this forum will tell you I would not spend my time on it otherwise.) You need to learn TAGFEE and no matter how much it hurts (and it does sometimes) you have to be straight up with your clients and you sometimes have to tell them what they do not wish to hear. I have yet to lose a client because I told them the truth.

I wish you the very best, please trust these other Mozzers and do what they say. They are not here to hear themselves type. They actually have passion and they give a damn about the outcomes of those who ask questions here. And, when someone like me is wrong...they tell me.

Best,

Robert

[Marcus_Miller]

Hey Jonathan

There are a couple of things that really jump out at me here.

Point 4 - You must use a full address or you are not going to see solid results. Seeing as how you used a mailbox previously and then are now using a new address then you likely have some NAP consistency issues. You need to

Point 5 - Do you need an address on the website - absolutely! There used to be an option to not show an address on your places listing and specify a service area but they are moving away from this and address is essential for your places listing and you really need to have this address on the website as well.

First thing i would do is take a look at the Local Ranking Factors from 2013 and review each point from the Foundational Ranking Factors, Competitive Difference Makers and Negative Ranking Factors and I think you will soon see a whole host of problems.

If I just pick a few from each to feedback on:

Foundational Ranking Factors

• Consistency of Structured Citations - multiple addresses will cause problems
• Quantity of Structured Citations - sounds like you have only updated some so likely work to do here

Competitive Difference Makers

• Consistency of Structured Citations - same problem as we have multiple addresses out there
• Quantity of Reviews - we have some but more would always help
• Quantity of Citations from Industry-Relevant Domains - you don't mention going after any industry specific citations and again if there is inconsistent address details on these sites then...

Negative Ranking Factors

I think you manage to hit 3 of the top 6 here

• Listing detected at false business location - that mailbox won't have helped here
• Mis-match NAP / Tracking Phone Numbers Across Data Ecosystem - those old citations are again not helping here
• Mis-match NAP / Tracking Phone Number on Places Landing Page - again, those old citations will be working against you
• Absence of Crawlable NAP on Website - at position ten but still very important!

Ultimately, the things that work towards helping you rank are in many cases the things that work against you if not done right. The concern over listing the address is understandable but a consistent NAP across the data ecosystem and on industry related sites is such a huge part or ranking locally that you can't really get away from this.

Your question here was 'local, really? and the answer has to be a resounding yes. You can see that local is important in that the query you are targeting (and variations of) all show a seven pack of local results so local is more important than traditional organic listings (which are also heavily localised in many cases) but if you want to optimise for local you have to be prepared to have the address visible.

You really need to get all of the basic, foundational factors in place and make sure the NAP is 100% consistent and there is little to no duplication (that is sites that have multiple citations at the correct and incorrect address). You also need to be prepared to wait a while if you have negative factors to undo here. I would really be looking at a six month process including a clean up and then some positive promotion to get where you need to be (no quick or easy wins).

This post will give you more details on the importance of citations along with a structured process to identify and audit all of your citations to get that consistency in place (and results will follow): 
http://www.bowlerhat.co.uk/blog/noise-trust-nap-consistency/

Hope that helps some and keep the faith - local works, it just needs some work to get there.

Marcus